Great introduction to the philosophies of Plato and Socrates

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	• Great Dialogues of Plato Plato Signet Classics, 2008 - 656 pages average customer review:based on 14 reviews view larger image
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highly recommended

Great collection/translation but bad print quality.

The translation and collection is admirable, but the quality of this Signet paperback I received is very cheap looking. For some reason it just seems crammed and most pages seem like they are typed in bold and others normal. Sometimes there will be a diagonal bolding of a page (like a line of bold going through from top left to bottom right) to the point where an "a" will have the entire bottom filled in. Not sure if I got a bad copy, but this isn't something I've ever noticed in a book before. This also makes some of the footnotes hard to read because they are even smaller so a "w" is all filled in and looks like an upside down triangle with the tip cut off.

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From Nietzsche to Plato... a modern view.

I have to say that Having started this after reading Kaufman's translation of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" I have an equal love for the treatment by W.H.D. Rouse in the dialogs. For a beginning philosophy student you can't really do any better than this excellent translation done in (fairly) modern english. (There's versions of this text dating from the 1950's here on amazon.) For the serious student it's an intelligent idea to read more than one translation because there will always be differences and omissions. I've also read his excellent prose treatments of Homer as well--I know some of you prefer the poetic versions, however it is more important that people read these works even if the form has changed. If you've tried reading other translations and the reading seems too dry or seems too structured, this version is done in plain, conversational english.

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Great introduction to the philosophies of Plato and Socrates

Love him or hate him (and there are plenty who feel both ways), Plato is essential reading for anyone interested in Western thought. So much so that A. N. Whitehead made the famous, if controversial, comment that "all of philosophy is but a series of footnotes to Plato." Even if that's a bit over the top, Plato is still simply one of those "must reads," for philosophy in particular, and for the humanities in general. Plato raised questions about virtue, justice, love, government, god, society, epistemology and metaphysics that we still wrestle with today, and his answers, for better or worse, have greatly impacted our culture and history.

If you're new to Plato, this edition is a good start. I've had my copy of the Great Dialogues of Plato-now dog-eared, scribbled in, and Scotch-taped together-since I first wrestled with the Apology and the Republic in my high school humanities class. These are hardly Plato's only dialogues, but they are arguably the most important, especially for general students. Rouse's translations are highly readable. He captures the flavor of what Plato wanted to say and how he wanted to say it, without sounding antiquated or artificially modern.

It's worth noting that this edition does not present the dialogues in the order in which Plato probably wrote them, but in the order which seems to represent the unfolding of the particular events described. Thus, the Apology, Crito and Phaedo-describing the trial and death of Socrates-come together at the end, even though the Apology was one of the first dialogues written by Plato, and the Phaedo was among his middle dialogues. This is important because earlier dialogues are probably more representative of Plato's teacher, Socrates, while later dialogues reflect increasingly Platonic thinking, even though Plato continued to use "Socrates" as a character. The Socratic ethics of the Apology and Crito, for instance, seem sharply at odds with the ethics of the Republic, probably Plato's most complete and representative work.

So you might want to read the dialogues in the following order: Apology, Crito, and Ion, for roughly Socratic thought; Meno and Phaedo, for transitional dialogues; and Symposium and Republic for solidly Platonic thinking. Of course, there is no universal agreement on the order of Plato's dialogues, nor as to which represents whose views most faithfully.

As for drawbacks to this edition, there are no introductions to the individual dialogues, Rouse's general "Preface" is short and weak, and the standardized reference numbers to the original Greek pages are only summarized at the top of odd pages, instead of given as line-by-line annotations, which makes cross-referencing a chore. (Because of the lack of introductions, you should read at least an article or two on Socrates and Plato from any general history of philosophy.) Nonetheless, I like Rouse's translations, and the edition is worthy of five stars despite its shortcomings. I still refer to my banged up copy, which I'll keep on my bookshelf as long as the pages hold together.

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Plato is great, but this translation is not

There is no point in trying to detract from the works of Plato themselves; anyone who is buying a collection of his dialogues is already convinced of his preeminence in Western philosophy.

This translation, however, is honestly lousy, and it surprises me how well it seems to have been received. Though I have some training in philosophy (an undergraduate degree) I'm certainly not an ancient philosophy expert, and I found no difficulty in reading Jowett, and I imagine the average reader approaching Plato would not either. Rouse's modus operandus appears to be to make Plato "accessible"--to a fault, I think. Whatever gains are made in clarity are more than countered by the awkwardness of the text and frequent anachronisms. To illustrate, here are two quotes from the first dialogue included, Ion:

"Socrates: I'm glad to hear it, Ion, for it is clear you won't mind giving me a show.

Ion: I will most certainly. You'll find it a treat to hear, Socrates, how finely I have decked out Homer! I believe I've earned a golden crown from the Homer Association."

What Rouse awkwardly translates as "Homer Association"--which sounds like a group of middle-aged men who get together every Wednesday to bowl and drink, or something--is preserved in Jowett's text as Homeridae, a group of ancient Greek Homeric scholars. How this could be confusing, especially with a simple footnote, is beyond me.

Second:

"Ion: When someone speaks about any other poet, I can't attend. I can't put in one single remark to the point, I'm just in a doze--but only mention Homer and I'm wide awake in a jiffy . . ."

The term "jiffy" is so anachronistic and silly that it really distracts the reader from the flow of the text. I cannot possibly understand why Rouse thought this was a good word to use here.

These are just some examples. All translations of Plato that I've encountered have some anachronism--Socrates quotes Latin phrases in Jowett, for example--but there is and should be a limit, and I think it's obvious that Rouse exceeds that limit.

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Good

The book was delivered fast and in excellent conditions. I recommend doing business with this member.

reviews: page 1, 2, 3

"In Rouse's pages, Soctrates' strength of mind, his dedication to the philosophical truth, are borne in on the modern reader with something of the power that impressed and disturbed the ancient Greeks."--Time

"There has been no adequate translation of Plato since Jowett...and I think Rouse has done it." --Dudley Fitts

* Rouse is one of the world's most respected classical scholars

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